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PrintFaith - Something We Can All Respect
News Type: Other — Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:52 AM EDT
Gian Lorenzo Bernini - The Guardian of Faith
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The sentiments against religion, Christianity especially have been numerous and is quite unfortunate. People tend to attack the believers of a religion instead of attacking the religion itself, which shows that they themselves don't understand the full importance of religion.
Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. You can't see the future, yet you know it will come; you can't see the air, yet you continue to breathe. -Claire London
With the rise of conspiracy theories about the history of Christianity, many of which do hold water, have put into movement an anti-Christian feeling held by a large number of youth. These are people, as well as numerous adults, who read The Da Vinci Code and immediately think Christians are either bad or uneducated people.
It's faith in something and enthusiasm for something that makes a life worth living. -Oliver Wendell Holmes
I may not be a Christian, but I will defend their right to faith as I find it is better to be a Christian believing in a non-existant God then to be an atheist without faith in anything (I am not trying to press the idea that there is no God, so please don't focus on this statement). As Evelyn Beatrice Hall wrote, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." (this has often been misattributed to Voltaire). You find these religious critics going after Christians with such questions as "did you know that your religion is based on pagan religions?" and "do you really believe that the Bible is true - there are so many contradictions". While these are important areas to discuss, many critics seem to forget that the most important aspect of religion is faith.
Faith is not belief. Belief is passive. Faith is active. -Edith Hamilton
Faith is defined as the confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. So from this definition it seems that yes, faith can be both good and bad. However when challenging a person on their religion, and I will use Christianity largely as the example, many critics seem to try undermine the importance of the believers faith. But what is wrong with the faith they hold? Does it not make them better people? Does it not keep them in check with the morals prescribed by their religion?
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible. -St. Thomas Aquinas
Faith is often thought of as a belief in something without proof, yet this is a very limiting definition. True faith, as held by millions of practitioners worldwide, is trust. Very few words can describe true faith better than trust, as when an individual places their unconditional faith onto an idea, they also place their trust on it.
Faith certainly tells us what the senses do not, but not the contrary of what they see; it is above, not against them. -Blaise Pascal
Now let us take into consideration the view of faith from a non-religious standpoint. Do not people, whether religious or not, place faith each day into hundreds, if not thousands or millions of things, both great and small? When someone feeds you a meal, do you not trust that it is safe to eat (you have no scientific evidence); when you buy a new CD, do you not trust that it will work (you have not tried it yet). People go through every moment of their lives, living in some manner of faith. Faith that their car was built safely, faith that your donations are going to the advertised cause, faith that science is actually correct.
Religions die when they are proved to be true. Science is the record of dead religions. -Oscar Wilde
Faith in a god is no different then the little acts of faith we make each and every day. It is something which is unproven to us, perhaps will never be proven to us, yet we maintain trust that it will work, and in the case of religion guide us along a path of better life. And there lies one of my favorite debates - is science simply another religion. It seems quite evident that scientific explanation is rarely immortal, so do we not put faith in it being correct? By looking at the different angles, it is apparent that life and faith are intertwined, and will most likely never cease to be as such.
To me faith means not worrying. -John Dewey
As I get to the end of this piece and re-read it a few times, it seems almost as if this is a piece largely entailing epistemology, the philosophical school of learning which deals with the nature and scope of knowledge. What do we know? How do we know that we know it? A confusing, never ending, yet quite fulfilling topic to read into.
Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase. -Martin Luther King, Jr.
When you encounter someone with a belief in something, do not attack their faith. Faith is never wrong or bad. Arguing against what they place their faith in is reasonable. Give your respect to someone who holds true faith - the type of faith that allows a person to go their entire life believing in something that has never revealed itself to them in the slightest. The type of faith that makes a person believe that they will overcome their sickness, and seeing them actually do that - no matter what the odds are against them.
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{"commentId":173820,"authorDomain":"praetor605"}
Faith in a god is no different then the little acts of faith we make each and every day.
Yes they are and I fear we are playing with words a bit. We all use the word faith for the little things, but faith in religion is different. We have faith that our food is not poisoned because of past experiences. We have faith science works because it has a built in correction system and has given up tangible benefits. I have faith a cd will work because of an expectation (and experience) that it working is the very reason I am buying it and can see my faith shattered when it does not. However, faith in religion is different because it is faith in something that cannot be seen, experienced, proved, or even debated. My faith in cds can diminish and change over time, but religious faith has built in mechanisms to avoid making a person think.
If they lose their faith, they will have an unpleasent after life. It is wrong to question your faith or the tenets it is based upon because you might be seduced by "the devil" (etc) and suffer a punishment. Religious faith is usually based on a religion that tells you how to live and what to believe. They trust that their way is the correct way and other ways are wrong. They have no logical reason to think this, but it dos not matter because they have faith.
Faith needs to be questioned. For too long it has been taboo to question someone's beliefs about religion but that is starting to change. Now I am not saying we all run into churches and scream at people, but when the proper forum is available (like newsvine) then we should use it.
Faith in religion gives a person the belief that they are correct, period. You can throw as much evidence and arguments at that faith as you want, but most of the time the person will not even consider what you have to say because they have faith. In what other context is this tactic acceptable for rational people to use? If I were to say in ever argument that my invisible friend Bob gives me all the correct answers, is never wrong, and you cannot disprove his existance or convince me Bob is wrong. I do not think people would take my arguments very seriously.
So no, I do not respect most types of religious faith.
{"commentId":173820,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"praetor605"}
- 10 votes
#1 - Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:49 AM EDT{"commentId":173978,"authorDomain":"paddy"}
Prompt, excellent article.
However, faith in religion is different because it is faith in something that cannot be seen, experienced, proved, or even debated ... religious faith has built in mechanisms to avoid making a person think.
Praetor, I'm glad you added the the little words "most types of religious faith" at the end of your comment. You were painting with far too wide a brush.
But I don't blame you for your repulsion against faith. I feel like saying to many Christians: "You give faith a bad name" :-)
{"commentId":173978,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"paddy"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":173979,"authorDomain":"Brad-Leclerc"}
Couldn't have said it better myself....and probably would have made less sense, so thanks for saving everyone from my ranting. :D
{"commentId":173979,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"Brad-Leclerc"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":174183,"authorDomain":"paddy"}
Rukh, I take it you're referring to Praetor's comment? Or have my prayers finally been answered? :-)
{"commentId":174183,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"paddy"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":174199,"authorDomain":"Brad-Leclerc"}
Well it was intended as a response to Praetor's comment, but you beat me to it. Really though it would fit with yours too. I don't think ALL faith is a bad thing, but people with faith should be accountable for their faith I think.
{"commentId":174199,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"Brad-Leclerc"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":174546,"authorDomain":"yar"}
{"commentId":174562,"authorDomain":"Brad-Leclerc"}
Religious faith is usually based on a religion that tells you how to live and what to believe.
The US constitution tells you the same thing.
The US constitution was written based on reason and for the protection of US citizens, not arbitrary rules based on fear of hell or hope of heaven.
Religion has at least as much logic as science.
Um.....I don't think you'd accept any response I have to that statement, as I've already debated with you about the faulty logic you tend to follow.
I can respect the faith of an atheist, but I do not agree with him.
That statement shows you either don't understand the meaning of faith, or don't understand the meaning of atheist, or both.
Personally I have no problem with people having faith if they are willing to be held accountable and give reasons for that faith, but saying it's as logical as science is just plain absurd.
{"commentId":174562,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"Brad-Leclerc"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":174158,"authorDomain":"prompt"}
Faith needs to be questioned. For too long it has been taboo to question someone's beliefs about religion but that is starting to change. Now I am not saying we all run into churches and scream at people, but when the proper forum is available (like newsvine) then we should use it.
I agree with what you are saying, that what people place their faith into should be challenged. Look at those who believed Hitler was doing no evil, that those who believed that killing for their religion is justified, etc. However, the idea of faith itself - the connection people feel. When placed correctly, it is quite a powerful connection, and even when not placed in the best of beliefs it is still a strong emotion, and one that should be respected.
So by all means, I encourage everyone to challenge what they believe in, and what others believe in. Because after it all, faith will still remain, and be placed in ideologies which are better (such a subjective term unfortunately).
{"commentId":174158,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"prompt"}
- 3 votes
#2 - Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:29 PM EDT{"commentId":174922,"authorDomain":"adamkemp"}
I don't respect "faith". I usually let it be unless someone is saying something especially ridiculous, or is trying to push their beliefs on others, but I don't respect those beliefs. Why would I? I don't think belief in things without evidence is a respectable position. As praetor pointed out, there's an equivocation going on when you compare faith in religious beliefs with faith in things you have experience with.
I know the sun will rise not because I have "faith", but because it has risen every day of my life and every day in recorded history, and I understand why it rises. That is entirely different from faith in something with no evidence.
Some people claim to have evidence. Those people shouldn't be using the term "faith". I disagree with their evidence, but if it is truly convincing to them then they are not believing based on faith. They are believing based on this evidence. People who truly believe based on faith alone should not be respected for doing so.
{"commentId":174922,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"adamkemp"}
- 1 vote
#3 - Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:28 PM EDT{"commentId":174931,"authorDomain":"yar"}
{"commentId":174939,"authorDomain":"adamkemp"}
I don't believe we can prove that. I don't think it needs to be proved. I think the Universe has always existed, and so far evidence backs this up (in that "time" as we know it did not exist until the Big Bang).
Either way, as I've said in another thread, I don't think that lacking understanding in something is grounds to invent something inherently untestable to explain it. If we knew for certain that the Universe had a beginning (which we don't), then that's still not evidence for a God. I don't have to have "faith" that a God didn't do it just because I don't understand how it could have happened without a God. Adding a God doesn't explain it any more than not adding a God.
So no, I don't have "faith" in a naturalistic Universe. All of my experience and knowledge points to that.
{"commentId":174939,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"adamkemp"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":175023,"authorDomain":"darkside"}
Faith is never wrong or bad.
Really? Cuz...I kinda see it as perhaps the single greatest danger facing humanity, once you mix it with weapons and economic warfare.
What's the difference between these three Q/As?
"Why do you go to church?" "Because God wants me to."
"Why did you invade Iraq?" "Because God wants me to."
"Why did you blow yourself up in a shopping mall?" "Because God wanted me to."
I don't really see one. Faith is a solid wall - once someone plays the faith card, you're telling me, I can't press them any further. That's nuts.
{"commentId":175023,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"darkside"}
- 3 votes
#4 - Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:16 AM EDT{"commentId":175033,"authorDomain":"yar"}
{"commentId":175037,"authorDomain":"darkside"}
Because you know nothing of God or faith.
I've studied God and faith exhaustively, so that's a stretch - unless, of course, you're making a Transcendalist claim in the Kantian sense, whereby God exists in the noumenon where he is completely inaccessible to humans. In which case, neither do you.
The first is something God wants. 2 and 3 are things God would never say, that is the difference.
Well, that's funny. Bush, with his comment about God telling him to go Iraq, and the entire movement of radical Islam would seem to be in disagreement. I wonder, how would you respond to them if they said you were wrong, and that God actually wants them to do these things?
What is a blind, solid wall is to close your mind to ideas you are incapable of understanding.
Not to pick nits, but if I'm incapable of understanding it (again, you seem to be taking the Kantian approach, yet your belligerance belies this...) then it seems only reasonable to close my mind to it and focus on things that make sense.
{"commentId":175037,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"darkside"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":175038,"authorDomain":"adamkemp"}
You know what God wants?
{"commentId":175038,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"adamkemp"}
{"commentId":175060,"authorDomain":"yar"}
{"commentId":175062,"authorDomain":"darkside"}
Yar,
Please address my question.
{"commentId":175062,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"darkside"}
{"commentId":175072,"authorDomain":"Brad-Leclerc"}
Adam Kemp
You know what God wants?
yar
Adam Kemp
Yes.
Yar, stop scaring the children. And by "children" I mean me, and by "scaring" I mean creeping me out with your inability to see any sort of logic or reason and tendency to assume everything in the universe works exactly as you want it to....not even as you THINK it does....but as you WANT it to work.....which of course is not the case. I try my best to respect your opinion, but when you do things like say you know what god wants it really makes respecting you hard.....
{"commentId":175072,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"Brad-Leclerc"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":175084,"authorDomain":"yar"}
{"commentId":175092,"authorDomain":"darkside"}
Who is AK? If I were the suspicious sort I might suspect that you just emailed off my challenge to someone named AK and then copy/pasted his response, but surely not...?
The only place you come close to addressing my point is by saying that Bush and I should reread the Bible. You don't address the terrorist question at all. Am I to take this to mean that The Bible is the word of god and the Quran isn't? What would a Muslim say to this? How would you respond to him?
You see, it's all equivocation. Your argument comes down to "Because I know what god wants." So does the terrorists. Only a concept as bat@!$%# crazy as "faith" can allow you to get away with this - I'm sorry, Prompt, I have zero respect for faith, I think it's dangerous.
Yar is obviously incapable of responding to my questions, so would anyone else like to try? Anyone at all?
{"commentId":175092,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"darkside"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":175096,"authorDomain":"yar"}
{"commentId":175098,"authorDomain":"adamkemp"}
I'm assuming that I'm AK, and he didn't intend for that part to be in a quote.
Yar: Reading the Bible doesn't tell you what God would want. To claim that you know what an omnipotent, omniscient being wants is extremely egotistical.
{"commentId":175098,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"adamkemp"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":175102,"authorDomain":"darkside"}
Prompt: Praetor addressed your main point there, in that there's a difference between faith in God and faith that the rock will sink the 1001st time, too.
Will you take my challenge and explain to me what the difference is between my original three q/a's? And then, anticipate the argument that a suicide bomber would make in his own defense and take that into consideration?
{"commentId":175102,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"darkside"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":175106,"authorDomain":"yar"}
{"commentId":175111,"authorDomain":"prompt"}
{"commentId":175114,"authorDomain":"darkside"}
A fair response, but you trivialize one important fact.
If they believe in something you feel is wrong, then convince them of that.
How? Faith, when treated as a virtue, teaches those that have it that any attempt to undermine is a temptation and should be avoided. If someone has religious faith, then there is no way to reason with them to show them that they are wrong.
For example, how could I begin to convince yar that the Bible may not be the one and only source of truth? I could show him every reasonable argument I can think of, and he may hesitate - and then shake his head, resent me for tempting him, and argue that he just knows it is because he experiences god's love and that's that.
Faith is uncompromising and ludicrous, and has no place in a world where everyone gets along. I have always lived by the policy that to know and to love are synonymous - but in faith, you are closing off types of knowledge. How can you ever get along with someone whose faith is in direct confrontation with your own?
{"commentId":175114,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"darkside"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":175118,"authorDomain":"prompt"}
{"commentId":175127,"authorDomain":"darkside"}
I don't buy into the distinction between blind faith and true faith. Why? Because that's entirely subjective. The Christian Fundamentalist says the Islamic Fundamentalists have blind faith. The Islamic Fundamentalist says the Christian Fundamentalists have blind faith. Where is the objective playing field where we can all sit down and agree to basic positions? It doesn't exist.
Whether faith is instilled through brainwashing as a child or selected intentionally as an adult, it has one distinctive feature: it doesn't give a rat's ass about any other arguments. Once faith has been selected, it is immune to discussion.
{"commentId":175127,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"darkside"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":175135,"authorDomain":"yar"}
{"commentId":175142,"authorDomain":"prompt"}
{"commentId":175508,"authorDomain":"adamkemp"}
One cannot live without faith, as I mentioned, so to have no respect for it is foolish (imo). You place your faith in the ideals you hold, in the teachers you learn from, in the life you live.
You are using a classic instance of the equivocation fallacy.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.
Compare these definitions. They are all different. You are using the word "faith" as if it has one meaning. If I have "faith" (definition 1) in America or "faith" (definition 3) in my best friend, that is entirely different from having "faith" (definition 2 or 3) in God. They're simply not the same.
{"commentId":175508,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"adamkemp"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":175024,"authorDomain":"merrydeath"}
A few months ago I wrote an essay answering the question 'What is the difference between belief, hope, and faith?' for a blog project I was doing. This was my conclusion
Faith, rooted neither in the mind (belief / conviction) or the heart (hope), finds its ground in the experience of the soul. Faith is our link to the mystery around us and it motivates us to deeper understanding, it inspires hope, gives us reason to believe, and the courage to act. It comes to us through the shared experiences of people; in the histories, songs, and stories. Faith is what inspires us to hope in the face of despair and to believe when wallowing in doubt. The book of Hebrews, chapter 11, tells us that faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Grok it.
{"commentId":175024,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"merrydeath"}
- 2 votes
#5 - Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:16 AM EDT{"commentId":175120,"authorDomain":"yar"}
{"commentId":175289,"authorDomain":"paddy"}
Mykola, Having skimmed over the discussion above, my two cents are: faith is something intrinsically woven into our souls (forgive the repetition). What you have been denouncing above (fundamentalism, in either culture) is not the product of faith - it's the realm of fanatics.
Religious faith (which today seems to be the main meaning of the word) is good. In an unbalanced individual, it is dangerous. As the ancients used to say, "anything in exaggeration is dangerous".
{"commentId":175289,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"paddy"}
- 2 votes
#7 - Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:51 AM EDT{"commentId":175320,"authorDomain":"silentium"}
Great article. I started to comment on this, but realised it was getting far too long, so instead I've made it into a separate article.. lol
{"commentId":175320,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"silentium"}
- 1 vote
#8 - Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:33 AM EDT{"commentId":179990,"authorDomain":"WilliamHolmes"}
Having "faith" that something that isn't real IS real is NOT admirable. It's just plain silly. Things can be explained now...through science. The reasons for religion from our ancient past are numerous. But....they have no place in the modern world.
{"commentId":179990,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"WilliamHolmes"}
- 3 votes
#9 - Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:28 PM EDT{"commentId":179996,"authorDomain":"yar"}
{"commentId":180387,"authorDomain":"paddy"}
William Holmes, the "modern world" you live in must not be the same one I know :-)
{"commentId":180387,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"paddy"}
{"commentId":200126,"authorDomain":"brianford"}
While these are important areas to discuss, many critics seem to forget that the most important aspect of religion is faith.
I think a lot of Christians seem to forget this too. (See the Intelligent Design debate which is a mockery of Christian faith.)
I also tend to think that the Christians who are attacked are the ones who put extreme views out there or who expect that their views should be guidelines for the general public.
{"commentId":200126,"threadId":"3952","contentId":"240099","authorDomain":"brianford"}
- 4 votes
#10 - Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:01 AM EDT{"canLink":false,"threadId":"3952","isPrivate":false}
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