@!$%#es and Hoes - Exploring Misogyny in Hip-Hop

News Type: Event — Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:17 AM EST

entertainment, women, hip-hop, rap, sexism, misogyny, bitches, hoes

Hip-hop often comes under attack for the lyrical content found in much of the music released such as the glorification of drug use, the focus on a largely material life, and the promotion of violence. However, one issue that often stands out from the others is the apparent representation of women as objects and other misogynist practises.

So what examples are provided when it is argued that hip-hop is misogynist, or at least more so than other genres of music? Let's take it back to Dr. Dre's classic 1992 album, The Chronic, specifically the final track "@!$%#es Ain't @!$%#". Arguably the most sexist part of the song would be considered Kurupt's lines:

@!$%#es on my nuts like clothes /
But I'm from the pound and we don't love them hoes /
How could you trust a hoe? [Snoop:] Why? [echoed 3X] /
Cuz a hoe's a trick /
We don't love them tricks [Snoop:] Why? [echoed 3X] /
Cuz a trick's a @!$%# /
And my dick's constantly in her mouth /
And turnin' them trick ass hoes the @!$%# out

Within these 8 lines are contained most of the so called "problems" with hip-hop music. First, the rapper makes constant mention of hoes, @!$%#es, and tricks, all of which are considered misogynist labels for women. Second, the rapper mentions that he will not love (and as a common extension, respect) these women. Third, it can be safely assumed from these lyrics, as well as from evidence taken from many other songs, that the rapper sees these women as worth less than him.

These lyrical causes of criticism are joined by the themes found in many hip-hop music videos, for example in the video for "Area Codes" by Ludacris and Nate Dogg. The central message of the song is that these two rappers have a large quantity of women they can call upon in many different area codes, presumably to receive sexual gratification from (as the chorus goes, "I've got hoes in different area codes"). The video basically contains numerous different locations showing plenty of scantily clad women dancing around while the rappers perform the song. These practises lead to cries that hip-hop music videos overly portray women as sexual items and as unrespectable members of society.

On the surface it seems to be obvious that hip-hop is definitely misogynist. Fairly recently the problem was brought further into the spotlight due to Don Imus' "nappy headed ho" comment and his justification that black woman are labelled similarly by their own men. Unsurprisingly, Oprah took this opportunity to spearhead the misogynist problem. She dedicated two shows to the issue and had numerous guests participate in the discussions. The first show entitled "Now What?" included activist Al Sharpton, artist India Arie, a former CBS executive, and two journalists, while the second show "The Hip-Hop Community Responds" had Russell Simmons, Dr. Ben Chavis of the Hip-Hop Action Network, rapper Common, and record executive Kevin Liles.

Both shows focused largely on the same topics, primarily the excessive use of metaphors used to refer to woman, most of which are considered sexist. Dr. Robin Smith commented that when "you feed someone garbage, eventually it starts to taste good," Common mentioned that hip-hop, being still so young, needs to be guided the same as children need to be, and Russell Simmons explained how while running DefJam he would try influence his artists to be more conscious of their lyrics. Diane Weathers a former editor of Essence magazine even went as far as suggesting that Snoop Dogg should have his contract terminated because of his lyrical content and music videos, as well as his participation in the pornography industry (he has directed two porn videos).

The problem with Oprah's discussion and quite often other discussions on the subject of misogyny is the lack of representation by the artists who are being attacked. Why didn't Oprah invite Dr. Dre, 50 Cent, or Snoop Dogg to defend themselves and explain their side of the issue? Furthermore, why didn't she invite the female artists who exploit the situation in order to gain more popularity, such as Lil Kim or Trina. Even more to the point, why weren't the women who are being "exploited" in the music videos invited?

And what measures have been suggested to solve the problems many argue are facing hip-hop music and culture? Well unfortunately, there are only few and none of them can be considered very good. One of the most vocalized suggestions has been for a censorship on the offending words, as has been expressed by Russell Simmons in his call for an elimination of the words "@!$%#" and "ho" from the music industry. Thankfully, Simmons is only calling for a voluntary ban as he believes in respecting the creative output of lyricists and poets, but there have been calls for legal bans, such as in New York where it was debated whether the word "@!$%#" should be outlawed. This solution should be rejected simply on the basis that censorship as forced by the government is never right.

From the information provided thus far it seems appropriate to agree that women are often portrayed very poorly in hip-hop music, yet the debate is far from being so simple. To get the full story on the use of sexist metaphors in hip-hop, one must analyze it from the point of view of those who are responsible for continuing the use of the words.

Generally when rappers mention @!$%#es and hoes they are referring not to all women, but to a specific type of woman. Although definitions are not completely consistent, the underlying agreement is that @!$%#es and hoes are women who lack respect for themselves. Immortal Technique wrote about this common problem found among black women in his song "No Me Importa," explaining:

Escuchame [Hard working] senorita, if you don't respect yourself /
Don't expect respect from anyone else /
Don't expect un hombre [a man] to support you with wealth /
Go to college and be successful, do it for delft [??] /
Nunca vas a ser [You are never going to be] @!$%# without knowledge yourself /
Mami's with cultural ineptitude are bad for your health /
That's the type of mujer [woman] that I put back on the shelf /
And go back to the packed crowd to look for somebody else

Not many rappers express their respect and desire for independent and strong women, as Immortal Technique does here, but that doesn't mean rappers don't support the idea. However, the seemingly excessive referrals to @!$%#es and hoes can at least be partially explained by other themes of hip-hop, notably the idea of living the big (successful) life. Along with lots of money and fame, it is common to have popularity with the opposite sex seen as a sign of success. It is ften men who are seen as the biggest agitators of this, but how many women in the entertainment industry have been guilty of bragging of their popularity among the men – it goes both ways, and as a potentially shallow method of judging a person, the problem extends far beyond hip-hop culture.

Getting back to the definition of @!$%#es and hoes, when rappers refer to such women, they are referring to the women who give sexual favours easily, who drop out of school unnecessarily, who are willing to demean themselves for money or even only acceptance, and the women who enthusiastically dance to and sing the lyrics "Superman dat hoe!" without care for the sexism inherent in the action of actually Supermaning a woman (if anyone is curious, ask and I'll explain what it is).

Now the title @!$%# don't apply to all women /
But all women have a little @!$%# in 'em

This famous lyric spit by Ice Cube in N.W.A.'s "A @!$%# is a @!$%#" is a sentiment shared by most rappers. When 50 Cent sang "@!$%# get off me" he wasn't referring to the women who respect themselves and live their life accordingly. Nevertheless, some will argue that such a justification is useless because referring to any women as @!$%#es or hoes is in effect an attack on all women.

In the end, the words in question in this debate are simply that – words – and as should be treated as such. When a woman is labelled a @!$%# they should step back and judge if the comment is at all valid and from there they should act appropriately. It is the responsibility of the women to respect themselves and live their life according to that principle. This applies equally to men – not all men are dicks (in the sense that they are rude, excessively aggressive, and egotistical), but all men are able to be a dick, and it is their responsibility to make sure that they don't act like one.

This isn't a defence of being disrespectful, but a response to the accusation that rappers are unfair to women as a whole and that they promote similar disrespect towards women among their fans. All of society needs to reform its views of women and to single out hip-hop as a misogynistic stronghold is just wrong.

-----

You can also find this article over at the new Listen In Website.

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4.5

{"commentId":1517525,"authorDomain":"prompt"}

prompt

Digg | Propeller

{"commentId":1517525,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"prompt"}

1 vote

#1 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:29 AM EST

{"commentId":1556884,"authorDomain":"pobox522rlyeh"}

Smiling Jack

I've read through this article twice, and I hardly know what to say, really.

This isn't a defence of being disrespectful, but a response to the accusation that rappers are unfair to women as a whole and that they promote similar disrespect towards women among their fans. All of society needs to reform its views of women and to single out hip-hop as a misogynistic stronghold is just wrong.

It is? How do you figure? I can't think of any genre that spends more of it's time degrading women. Should GW Bush not be singled out for being militaristic? He doesn't represent all unjust wars after all...

I don't know. Clearly I'm in the minority here, which may have to do with my being a little older then some of you folks, but I think this is crap. It's an excuse, and a poor one.

It's very easy (espescially when talking to other people who enjoy the same genre) to say "Clean up your own house first." It's an argument which can always be made. Hip hop does not represent all misogyny so don't single it out. Ok, whatever. I dislike all misogyny, and I think this sort of argument is rather absurd.

Tomorrow, I suppose I could go write some sort of weird article talking about how muslims are murderers, and even coin a few new racist slurs while I were at it. If I do so, it will just be words.

Just recently, I think black culture reached kind of a turning point, because a small number of people are beginning to talk about just how barren and ugly a lot of so called "urban culture" really is. If Martin Luther King were around and we could play some of this crap in front of him, I wonder how he'd react. He'd probably take it in stride, but what he would not take in stride so much is just how much these lyrically minded thugs are considered to speak for the generation.

It is all too frequently materialistic, too frequently misogynistic, and worst of all from my point of view, it is far too violent. Yesterday some kid walked into a store I have an interest in and he was wearing a shirt that said, among other things, "snitches get stitches," and on the back was the name of a local band. I asked him to explain what that meant to me, not because I don't know what it means, but because I wanted to know if he knew.

He knew. He was sixteen years old, and he's wearing a shirt that's proposing that "snitches" get stabbed. Great.

{"commentId":1556884,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"pobox522rlyeh"}

2 votes

#1.1 - Sat Mar 8, 2008 10:53 PM EST

{"commentId":3875258,"authorDomain":"alkimija"}

alkimija

Absolute BS.

In the end, the words in question in this debate are simply that – words – and as should be treated as such. When a woman is labelled a @!$%# they should step back and judge if the comment is at all valid and from there they should act appropriately.

Calling someone a n****r or a w***e is equally offensive. There's no situation in which the use of these words is at all appropriate and certainly not valid. In every instance the terms are derogatory, disrespectful, and intolerable.

{"commentId":3875258,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"alkimija"}

#1.2 - Tue Nov 4, 2008 1:52 PM EST

{"commentId":1517634,"authorDomain":"emix"}

Evan Mix

An interesting take, Jon. I'll say this: I think it's wholly unfair, and quite silly, to level charges of misogyny against "rap" as an entity. Rap is far more complex and varied than this - not to mention the fact that in its essence, it's no different than "rock" or "blues" or any other musical style you care to take a crack at defining.

This isn't a defence of being disrespectful, but a response to the accusation that rappers are unfair to women as a whole and that they promote similar disrespect towards women among their fans.

I do want to point out that whatever the intentions of the artists in question, their work does serve to promote disrespect among *some* fans. I know some of them well. That isn't to say that it's the artist's fault, necessarily - one must always make room for simple stupidity and lack of sophisticated understanding - but it does happen, and should be acknowledged.

All of society needs to reform its views of women and to single out hip-hop as a misogynistic stronghold is just wrong.

This is certainly true.

P.S. When I first read this sentence: Arguably the most sexist part of the song would be considered Kurupt's lines I read "sexiest." I suppose that makes me a misogynist.

{"commentId":1517634,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"emix"}

3 votes

#2 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:54 AM EST

{"commentId":1519252,"authorDomain":"prompt"}

prompt

Good points Evan, and you are right that some do obviously take the wrong message from the music.

{"commentId":1519252,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"prompt"}

2 votes

#2.1 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:02 PM EST

{"commentId":1533849,"authorDomain":"juliet-warner"}

juliet-246995

P.S. When I first read this sentence: Arguably the most sexist part of the song would be considered Kurupt's lines I read "sexiest." I suppose that makes me a misogynist.

me too, except i'm the most self-respecting woman i know! i think we just read about sexy much more than sexism...

{"commentId":1533849,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"juliet-warner"}

2 votes

#2.2 - Mon Mar 3, 2008 8:11 AM EST

{"commentId":1518150,"authorDomain":"pwtenny"}

Paul William Tenny

P.S. When I first read this sentence: Arguably the most sexist part of the song would be considered Kurupt's lines I read "sexiest." I suppose that makes me a misogynist.

Or an artist.

{"commentId":1518150,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"pwtenny"}

2 votes

#3 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:53 PM EST

{"commentId":1519256,"authorDomain":"prompt"}

promptDeleted

{"commentId":1518160,"authorDomain":"tang"}

Calvin Tang

As usual, nice analysis prompt.

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2 votes

#4 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:55 PM EST

{"commentId":1519258,"authorDomain":"prompt"}

prompt

Thanks Cal.

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1 vote

#4.1 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:04 PM EST

{"commentId":1560766,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

Scott (Scoop) Butki

Nice job. Not sure I agree with everything you say but if nothing else it sparks a good discussion - I clipped this to Newsviner's Picks.

{"commentId":1560766,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"sbutki"}

#4.2 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:51 AM EDT

{"commentId":1518318,"authorDomain":"kymlee"}

kymlee

Oh, I have a bunch of thoughts on this issue. Unfortunately I have to run and pick my son up from school...he's sick :(.

I shall return with my two cents...

{"commentId":1518318,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"kymlee"}

3 votes

#5 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:33 PM EST

{"commentId":1519248,"authorDomain":"prompt"}

prompt

I figured you would have something to say, I look forward to it.

{"commentId":1519248,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"prompt"}

2 votes

#5.1 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:01 PM EST

{"commentId":1519882,"authorDomain":"kymlee"}

kymlee

It is rare that we find any industry completely devoid of sexism and misogyny. There is nothing spectacularly overt about the sexism in mainstream rap music than there was about rock in its so-call sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll days. I believe the criticism comes from its current popularity and growing as well as influence in sub-urban communities.

Like any other art form, hip hop is a form of expression and some artists choose to take the sexist route, others don't. I agree that the music - regardless of its content - is usually a reflection of the environment in which the artist/rapper was actualized. The uber masculinity exhibited by many rappers is merely a symptom of a perceived necessity for "street cred" and popularity.

I completely agree that people take things out of context, and that artists cannot control how messages in their music are processed. However, I have noticed negative affects of the repetition of misogynistic messages - in mass media in general - over time. To be truthful, rock is often considered white music in the Black community so the discussion regarding the purveyance of sexism in that regard is moot. It is well known (at least I hope it is) that there are definite stereotypes associated with Black women in particular and the one perpetuated through hip hop is often the image of the Jezebel. The controversy, I believe, is largely over the continuation of such images to this day.

Regardless of all of this, the only thing we can do to combat the affects of sexist (as well as other) damaging messages and/or images delivered to us (and our children) via mass media is to analyze what they mean, how they affect our psyche, and ultimately work to address the underlying societal issues from which the images/messages are borne from in the first place. Censorship should never be the answer, but rather the personal responsibility to examine the messages and behave with some level of decorum.

Unfortunately, the masses of people don't analyze anything. They don't even realize that the damaging messages are most affective when they are not paying attention. *sigh*

I'm done rambling now...

{"commentId":1519882,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"kymlee"}

4 votes

#5.2 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:20 PM EST

{"commentId":1520427,"authorDomain":"ejronin"}

Shawn Gordon

I completely agree that people take things out of context, and that artists cannot control how messages in their music are processed.

I don't feel we can say that though in terms of certain songs. "superman dat ho' being a good example, "make dat ass roll like a tweney fo" is another.

In one that the term specifically denotes retaliation for no sex. Aside from that the song basically tells you that you should do it. In the other the song by a woman justifies jiggling my ass all over to attract male sluts (but being a male this is, for me, undesirable). So we end up with a very confusing message. tease a man, and then if he wants sex do it or you'll get cum on your back...

Now common sense dictates that we really should ejaculate on a girls back for not having sex so she wakes up with a cape... but at the same time common sense shoudl dictate that you probably don't want to jiggle your assets to end up in a position such as that. When I listen to the kids get off the bus at 330 and run by singing it... and I understand that they're 8... then I have to question a few things.

Unfortunately, the masses of people don't analyze anything.

They're not supposed to... that's why the chorus in these songs is

A.) repetitious
B.) frequent

your subconscious takes for you.

I don't think that we should overly censor the music either, but I do agree with calling to reduce or eradicate certain words in publicly aired songs, but I still think that it is the overall message that people eventually pick up. Songs like that sell,and will continue to sell if the people saying these things are not held accountable for the effects of what they're saying and doing.

If they want to claim that its just music, then tell them to look at their fans... they dress similar, talk similar and aspire to be what they see. They don't see the drug problem, they see money. why do they see money? Because it seems like 60% of the content is a long winded shopping list with pauses to note income and demand respect for things that are... pretty deplorable.

I used to sell dope
I did play the block
Now i play on boats
In the south of France
Baby, St. Tropez

sell drugs, get rich, like me.

Get a tan? im already black
Rich? I'm already that
Gangsta, get a gat
Hit a head in a hat
Call that a riddle rap
@!$%#, f**k the chitter chat

I'm black AND rich... not common. I've got to be tough. Don't mess with me I'll kill you make no mistake.

I'm the baker, i bake the bread
The barber, i cut ya head
The marksman, i spray the lead
"I blood clot, chop ya leg"
Do not f**k with the kid
I get biz wit the cigg
I come where you live

let me reiterate my position unto you. I make lots of money, I'll kill you if you mess with me, and did I mention I was rich?

I get money, money is got (I I get it)
I get money, money is got (I I get it)
I get money, money is got (Yeah)
Money I got, money is got (I run New York!)
I get money, money is got (I I get it)
I get money, money is got (I I get it)
I get money, money is got (Yeah yeah)
Money I got, money is got (I run New York!)

Now this particular goldmine of intellectual lyrics happens 3 times. In 3:30 seonds 50 lets us know that "I got money" a total of 24 times. This mens on average about ever 3 seconds we're reminded of how he's got money.

you can't translate that, its not a figure of speech, and its not slang... its direct... and because of that, its what people pick out first. Due to repetition they'll remember it. It's not JUST music anymore.

By all means, say it, but take responsibility for what people do with it.

{"commentId":1520427,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"ejronin"}

3 votes

#5.3 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:27 PM EST

{"commentId":1520490,"authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

Aaron Still

Ah, the old, -don't scream FIRE in a crowded movie theater- defense. Very good. I counter with the slippery slope defense. Your response?

{"commentId":1520490,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

1 vote

#5.4 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:39 PM EST

{"commentId":1520566,"authorDomain":"ejronin"}

Shawn Gordon

Aaron, you know me better than that... and you know I don't really ever totally 'walk away'... either counterpoint, or explain what makes this in your opinion a slippery slope.. take your pick.

{"commentId":1520566,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"ejronin"}

1 vote

#5.5 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:56 PM EST

{"commentId":1520589,"authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

Aaron Still

Ah I was just taking a Pokemon style approach to Newsvine. Thought it would be more practical. I did find a sweet group that I can play in and have lots of fun. . . Hall of Mirrors. . . similar minded (to me) conspiracy theorists. So here's my tie-in to the article here. . .

The rich record producers are in league with the rest of the media moguls in their effort to mass-confuse the public for their own eventual (and direct) profit. The hip hop behavior makes a lot of noise and a lot of controversy to further cloud the imminent slavery of all humankind by the elite ruling class.

Cash rules everything around me CREAM get the money, dolla dolla bills y'all

How's that for a slippery slope?

{"commentId":1520589,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

1 vote

#5.6 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:03 PM EST

{"commentId":1520723,"authorDomain":"ejronin"}

Shawn Gordon

How's that for a slippery slope?

heavy on slope, light on slip...

you're right though... its about corporate money...too

But dont fool yourself into thinking rapper are victims as much as the audience.

Righteously violent prone my words bring winds like cyclones
Stormin your hideout, blockin out your sunlight
Your image and your business, were truly not done right
Throw up your he-Allah-I now, divine saviors
You got no hand skills there's no security to save ya
No pager, no celly, no drop top Benz-y
I came to bring your phone hip-hop, to an ending
My art of war will leave you sore from the abuse
Cause you must meet your moment of truth

maybe 10 year ago you'd hear Gangstarr on the radio... but his message is quite opposite of what is popular today. It's also well thought out unlike todays' rap. Once I hear @!$%# like THIS or THIS ... not materialistic self appointed gods complete with name brand shopping list and sex antics then maybe you can talk to me about how how 'artists' don't have anything to do with the behaviors of their audiences.

{"commentId":1520723,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"ejronin"}

1 vote

#5.7 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:34 PM EST

{"commentId":1520886,"authorDomain":"kymlee"}

kymlee

Shawn,

Of course people should be held accountable for what they produce a put out into the public sphere. The music is supper influential on the youth...yes...but I have to put the onuss on the listener (naively?). I didn't even know what "superman that ho" meant until I checked the link SS provided (I suppose I could have looked it up), but I don't let my kids listen to the song because I could detect the context of what the guy was saying. Similarly, growing up I wasn't allowed to watch music videos and given the explanation that the images were most often degrading to women.

People should be expected to think critically and evaluate why they like things. Music is never just music, a commercial is never just a commercial, a movie is never just a movie and if things were approached more in this manner, with people saying "wait that's not appropriate" then the artists would not make money and the display wouldn't be profitable. The artists are not innocent pawns in the game but they are playing along just the same. Honestly, I think the influence would be far less powerful if econmically disadvantaged didn't so oft equate to uneducated. It's really about the values we instill and how we filter the media messages. Unfortunately, inner city kids are taught that the way they make it out of the 'hood is to play sports or entertain. The focus isn't even on education or goals that are more attainable. Ultimately the messages in mainstream rap are symptoms of a larger problem within our society and not the problem in and of itself.

I suppose I shouldn't hold people to such a high standard...perhaps I should have learned by now that people are quite stupid en mass. Media on a whole influences and shapes our culture so we can't just blame it on the music. See the thing is that the target audience for most mainstream music is 13-20. Parents have a responsibility to filter those messages and not expect the blood suckers of the poor to give a @!$%# about being responsible for their message. If a guy was unscrupulous enough to sell drugs, what make you think he feels bad about parading that around? And even when someone like Tupac made references to making crime pay but converting to making rhymes pay, he was still criticized for glorifying violence and crime.

calling to reduce or eradicate certain words in publicly aired songs

I'm not to quick to advocate censorship. I do remember when I could listen to a Snoop song on the radio and not feel like my spirit was being assaulted because they had to make a radio appropriate version. I'd like to see a return to that type of standard, for sure.

I say people need to think and stop buying everything they are sold.

{"commentId":1520886,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"kymlee"}

1 vote

#5.8 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:15 PM EST

{"commentId":1521343,"authorDomain":"ejronin"}

Shawn Gordon

I'm not to quick to advocate censorship.

mmm.... i'm fairly certain certain words people will be more than ahppy to cencor, and its those that I'm talking about. personally I have a mouth like 10 sailors, let lone one... but I control it based on audience. I censor myself. I don't think the N word would be well received... or anything slanderous. Now, again I'm not for censorship either, but not airing certain words isnt really censorship because we're not prohibiting the 'artist' from saying them on the album version - but we still shouldn't look upon 'artists' with filler as creative or ideal

I suppose I shouldn't hold people to such a high standard...perhaps I should have learned by now that people are quite stupid en mass.

They are, and accepting it allows it. I try not to accept that people are stupid in large groups. I think that is a large part of why I get in so many debates across Newsivne and generally stand alone in them... I end up fighting groups (but not all of the groups are stupid and I'm not always right)

Unfortunately, inner city kids are taught that the way they make it out of the 'hood is to play sports or entertain. The focus isn't even on education or goals that are more attainable. Ultimately the messages in mainstream rap are symptoms of a larger problem within our society and not the problem in and of itself.

Yes, but its not confined to just inner city urbanites. Over the years it has bled into the suburban middle class socioeconomic groups as well. I'm not mad because it no effects 'white kids'... its effected them in inner cities and race has nothing to do with my disrespect for it on top of that... and I'm not saying you're implying this, but I can foresee someone making that a point had I not clarified- anyway, its bled out...

When Elvis was on stage wooing women with his hip wiggles and whatever it was he did... he was 'evil' and promoting 'sinful ways'... for his time, okay... maybe but over time it lost its appeal to the rebels because there was something more sinister... Growing up I remember parental controvery over Ozzy and bats, WASP and what it allegedly stoop for, Alice Cooper, Iron Maiden.... now... its pansy when you pit it up against Otep, Kitty, Cannibal Corpse, etc.... they just set a bar high and higher on what is more and more... well... bad.

Where I'll admit my argument somewhat fails is that in the end it is based on perception. I'm obviously from a much different generation and cultural upbringing than most kids who'll listen to Chingy, 36 mafia, and 504 boys... but irrespective of what generation and culture you've been around there are very basic ideas that are common within them all... like respect being earned not given and definitely not handed out because you've got a bit of bling.

And still, I've got to wonder if Ella Fitzgerald, Duke Ellington, Dizzie Gillespie, Thelonious Monk or even Sun Ra would listen in today and think "I really like what you're doing here with what we made...You really get your own roots..."

{"commentId":1521343,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"ejronin"}

2 votes

#5.9 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:26 AM EST

{"commentId":1524614,"authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

Aaron Still

It's all just words- if they hurt you, it's your own fault for letting them. (Of course, unless they're aimed specifically at you) Just language. Just symbols representing ideas. People are too sensitive.

{"commentId":1524614,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

#5.10 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:25 PM EST

{"commentId":1524640,"authorDomain":"ejronin"}

Shawn Gordon

It's all just words- if they hurt you, it's your own fault for letting them. (Of course, unless they're aimed specifically at you) Just language. Just symbols representing ideas. People are too sensitive.

yeah... for now. It's a little different when you watch kids around you follow suit based on misconceptions and lack of clarifications.. and more different when you begin to see it in your own kids and know or they tell you where they get it. I'm not saying parents dont have responsibility in this, but simply syaing 'its only words and not the fault of the artist' isn't a good line of reasoning IMO

{"commentId":1524640,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"ejronin"}

1 vote

#5.11 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:30 PM EST

{"commentId":1524702,"authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

Aaron Still

Sounds like fodder for a parent-child discussion. We need more interaction parent-to-child. . .listen, we can never take away free speech. I'll kill anyone who starts stripping my rights away and I believe it's my duty as a citizen to do so. And yes, the rappers have as much right to say whatever they want as the rest of us. A few hundred years ago, talk of being disloyal to the King of England was discouraged, I'm glad people kept doing it. Not that this plays on the same parallel, but it's on the same field and should be respected as such. So, keep wraps on your kid. Straighten them out. Talk to them. But you're not going to stop the music- and trying to will just throw gas on the fire.

{"commentId":1524702,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

#5.12 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:42 PM EST

{"commentId":1524842,"authorDomain":"kymlee"}

kymlee

Yes, but its not confined to just inner city urbanites. Over the years it has bled into the suburban middle class socioeconomic groups as well. I'm not mad because it no effects 'white kids'...

I hate to say it, but think that's exactly why people are so outraged...If it were just affecting minorities the scale of the outrage would be smarller. That's just my opinion.

It's all just words- if they hurt you, it's your own fault for letting them.

This concept Aaron, is disingenuous. To pretend that words to have meaning within social construct is ridiculous. The messages perpetuated in the media also have an affect on our socialization. I cannot say it enough; mass media reinforces societal mores, norms and values. We can pretend that those messages are only affective when we allow them to be but the fact is it would only be pretense and the only way to be less affected is to limit the media intake.

Sounds like fodder for a parent-child discussion. We need more interaction parent-to-child.

On this point I absolutely agree. My kids know why they can't listen to certain songs, watch certain television shows or even go over certain people's houses. I am careful about what they take in and it irritates me when songs like "Soldier Boy" infiltrates because I am so careful. They don't understand the messages, all they know is that their friends are allowed to listen to the song. One song may not be so bad, but then there's another...and another. It affects their socialization and in a way I am not comfortable with. So yes, words have meaning, and the messages can be damaging. It is our challenge to figure out how to counter-act the negative impacts of those words/messages.

{"commentId":1524842,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"kymlee"}

2 votes

#5.13 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:15 PM EST

{"commentId":1524890,"authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

Aaron Still

The messages perpetuated in the media also have an affect on our socialization.

Because we let it! We constantly allow ourselves to be affected by this stuff, I agree. We need to be stronger than that and raise our kids to think for themselves. Let your kid listen to it with you and dissect the song with him and explain why it's harmful and maybe your kid will spread the word. Grow a leader. Shake the fear. Bring yourself and your children above the noise of society.

{"commentId":1524890,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

#5.14 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:26 PM EST

{"commentId":1534838,"authorDomain":"kymlee"}

kymlee

dissect the song with him and explain why it's harmful

When I first read that I thought about previous times when I had tried to do just that. Sometimes it's hard to make comparable analogies that a 5-year-old can understand. However, shortly thereafter, my son came to me singing Soldier Boy, which I promptly told him I didn't think was appropriate for his age and he looked disheartened and asked me why. Resisting the urge to tell him it was a stupid song (which hasn't worked so far), I stopped what I was doing and told him that the song was about the guy doing something bad to a girl because she wouldn't give him something he wanted.

Of course he looked at me like he still didn't understand, so I asked him if it was okay for him to spit in my face if I told him he couldn't go outside and play; was it okay for him to slap me if I told him he couldn't have any candy. He looked disturbed by the idea and said no. I could tell then that he understood the concept and that my work was done. He still can't listen to the song, but at least he really understands why.

{"commentId":1534838,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"kymlee"}

3 votes

#5.15 - Mon Mar 3, 2008 12:59 PM EST

{"commentId":1569092,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

Scott (Scoop) Butki

Of course he looked at me like he still didn't understand, so I asked him if it was okay for him to spit in my face if I told him he couldn't go outside and play; was it okay for him to slap me if I told him he couldn't have any candy. He looked disturbed by the idea and said no. I could tell then that he understood the concept and that my work was done. He still can't listen to the song, but at least he really understands why.
2
!
#5.15 - Mon Mar 3, 2008 12:59 PM EST

I love this. Well done.

{"commentId":1569092,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"sbutki"}

1 vote

#5.16 - Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:36 AM EDT

{"commentId":1518375,"authorDomain":"stolte-sawa"}

Ryan Stolte-Sawa

Awesome contribution, Baby Daddy mine.

If you've ever heard the blues, you'll know that the majority of songs are about cheating lovers; "baby done me wrong" and all that. Even Delta bluesmen, otherwise revered, are critiqued for their overtly, vehemently misogynist lyrics. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that hip hop and rap have followed very closely in the narrative footsteps of their musicological forefathers, and I've always suspected that the meaning of old blues and Black American music was intentionally shrouded in like metaphors to protect the authors from racist retribution.

If these inklings are correct, we owe it to hip hop artists to ask them (that's: ask them) the same questions we might ask John Hurt or Muddy Waters: what are you singing about here, and how do you treat your lady (or ladies--hey, it's the 90s!)?

{"commentId":1518375,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"stolte-sawa"}

3 votes

#6 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:47 PM EST

{"commentId":1519275,"authorDomain":"prompt"}

prompt

what are you singing about here, and how do you treat your lady (or ladies--hey, it's the 90s!)?

I know I've seen video clips of a few rappers who talked about this issue, but I still can't find anything to link yet. I will keep looking though.

You are right though, more questions need to be asked to the artists. Problem is, the mainstream media doesn't really seem to want to interview the rappers and so most of the interviews are done by hip-hop media organizations.

{"commentId":1519275,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"prompt"}

3 votes

#6.1 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:08 PM EST

{"commentId":1520745,"authorDomain":"stolte-sawa"}

Ryan Stolte-Sawa

Problem is, the mainstream media doesn't really seem to want to interview the rappers and so most of the interviews are done by hip-hop media organizations.

Yeah, the brokers and moneymakers. I bet they have really lucid insights into the art they're selling. Where the hell is that irony mark key...

{"commentId":1520745,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"stolte-sawa"}

3 votes

#6.2 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:39 PM EST

{"commentId":1518608,"authorDomain":"deatienza"}

Eric Atienza

Nice work, I'll probably comment more later.

{"commentId":1518608,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"deatienza"}

2 votes

#7 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:49 PM EST

{"commentId":1519278,"authorDomain":"prompt"}

prompt

I'll be waiting.

{"commentId":1519278,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"prompt"}

#7.1 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:09 PM EST

{"commentId":1518715,"authorDomain":"nitegirl2001"}

nitegirl2001

What does "superman dat ho" mean?

{"commentId":1518715,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"nitegirl2001"}

1 vote

#8 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:12 PM EST

{"commentId":1519023,"authorDomain":"stolte-sawa"}

Ryan Stolte-Sawa

nitegirl, this should prove helpful.

{"commentId":1519023,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"stolte-sawa"}

3 votes

#8.1 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:18 PM EST

{"commentId":1519891,"authorDomain":"kymlee"}

kymlee

Oh that's just disgusting. Worse than when Lil John and the Ying Yang Twins were skeeting all over the place and no one knew what it meant (I did though...).

{"commentId":1519891,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"kymlee"}

4 votes

#8.2 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:21 PM EST

{"commentId":1520504,"authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

Aaron Still

I just has the best laugh I've had in forever. I'm actually crying. HA!

{"commentId":1520504,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

1 vote

#8.3 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:41 PM EST

{"commentId":1521358,"authorDomain":"ejronin"}

Shawn Gordon

I'm waiting for songs about angry dragons...

{"commentId":1521358,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"ejronin"}

#8.4 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:34 AM EST

{"commentId":1524619,"authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

Aaron Still

Iced Earth has some songs about dragons that get really irate over damsels.

{"commentId":1524619,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

1 vote

#8.5 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:26 PM EST

{"commentId":1524650,"authorDomain":"ejronin"}

Shawn Gordon

really?

{"commentId":1524650,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"ejronin"}

#8.6 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:31 PM EST

{"commentId":1524668,"authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

Aaron Still

LOL we can hope can't we?

{"commentId":1524668,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

#8.7 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:34 PM EST

{"commentId":1524678,"authorDomain":"ejronin"}

Shawn Gordon

*immature snicker*

{"commentId":1524678,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"ejronin"}

#8.8 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:36 PM EST

{"commentId":1524716,"authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

Aaron Still

I like the http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=strawberry+shortcake

{"commentId":1524716,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

1 vote

#8.9 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:45 PM EST

{"commentId":1524755,"authorDomain":"emix"}

Evan Mix

Strawberry shortcake

Wow.

{"commentId":1524755,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"emix"}

2 votes

#8.10 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:53 PM EST

{"commentId":1524762,"authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

Aaron Still

Well said, Evan.

{"commentId":1524762,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

1 vote

#8.11 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:54 PM EST

{"commentId":1519038,"authorDomain":"tang"}

Calvin Tang

Hey, I like this article and would like to comment, but I think that leaving a comment explaining that I'm going to comment at a later date is more appropriate at this juncture ;P

{"commentId":1519038,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"tang"}

1 vote

#9 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:20 PM EST

{"commentId":1519075,"authorDomain":"deatienza"}

Eric Atienza

Some of us would like to leave substantive comments but have to actually work during the day, but still think an article deserves attention and so leave something to activate the tracker.

It's sad that you don't know how your own site works...

{"commentId":1519075,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"deatienza"}

2 votes

#9.1 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:27 PM EST

{"commentId":1519295,"authorDomain":"prompt"}

prompt

Calvin I have a sneaking suspicion you keep coming back for the picture.

{"commentId":1519295,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"prompt"}

3 votes

#9.2 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:14 PM EST

{"commentId":1520314,"authorDomain":"ejronin"}

Shawn Gordon

well.... I'm trying to figure out if that pic is some how photoshopped... its like a perfect half circle...

{"commentId":1520314,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"ejronin"}

1 vote

#9.3 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:07 PM EST

{"commentId":1520509,"authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

Aaron Still

End-table ass!

{"commentId":1520509,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

1 vote

#9.4 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:43 PM EST

{"commentId":1523275,"authorDomain":"tang"}

Calvin Tang

It's sad that you don't know how your own site works...

Well geez, someone is in a foul mood ;) Y'know Emotienza, there is a 'track' button at the end of each comment thread ;p

Calvin I have a sneaking suspicion you keep coming back for the picture.

Picture.... what picture?

{"commentId":1523275,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"tang"}

#9.5 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:28 PM EST

{"commentId":1523415,"authorDomain":"deatienza"}

Eric Atienza

Y'know Emotienza, there is a 'track' button at the end of each comment thread ;p

I meant anyone with little enough sense to be tracking me.

{"commentId":1523415,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"deatienza"}

2 votes

#9.6 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:52 PM EST

{"commentId":1520351,"authorDomain":"deatienza"}

Eric Atienza

A bit drunk but here's my initial reactions that I was a bit too uncaffeinated to post earlier.

I think really the bigger issue are the music videos and the MTV/BET culture that reinforces such objectification of women. The songs themselves I can give or take.

To say that pop culture does not affect what we believe and how we act is like saying all the teenage anorexic girls don't think they're fat because of the unrealistic body image of woman pushed by media.

While I don't think that "words are just words" I agree that MCs cannot be solely blamed for misogyny pop culture. It's a wide array of things (including movies, including TV, including parents who reinforce archaic gender roles) but I don't think we should excuse any single one of those elements if we think they have erred.

In my comments across Newsvine it's obvious I think lyrics are an inextricable part of a song. Some song s, surely, are good for dancing in a club and nothing else but if these songs include lyrics that are vapid and frankly kind of boring I think they are only harmless if listeners walk in with their critical eyes open.

Of course there's hip-hop that's soulful and intelligent (it's the only kind I listen to) but the sort that draws these charges (the sort supported by major labels, and the mainstream media) I really can't defend on an intellectual level.

I had fun at a Spank Rock show a few months ago, but once I heard what he was saying:

She ain't nothin' but a hoochie mama,
Hood-rat, hood-rat, hoochie mama

it really took me out of the song and I left soon after.

{"commentId":1520351,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"deatienza"}

3 votes

#10 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:14 PM EST

{"commentId":1520525,"authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

Aaron Still

The demand for the music is what keeps it selling. . .I guess the music is expressing something that the urban culture wants to purge. My guess is that it makes one feel powerful, in whatever sense is appropriate, and it reveals a sense of a lack of control of their own destiny in an oppressive state.

"I spit game to a @!$%#, just like this- "Why you runnin round suckin all that dick / for no money?" "

--- Too $hort, Blowjob Bettie

{"commentId":1520525,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"rugmasterstill"}

#11 - Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:47 PM EST

{"commentId":1521117,"authorDomain":"PrimarySources"}

Synthesis

Jon, I don't have one insightful thing to add, but I wanted to drop in a comment to thank you for making me think. I think it's very easy to just accept the prevailing wisdom that rap is (and rappers are) essentially misogynist. As your analysis adroitly points out, there is very real danger in that type of lazy thinking. So, thanks!

{"commentId":1521117,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"PrimarySources"}

1 vote

#12 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:11 AM EST

{"commentId":1522579,"authorDomain":"jpryor03"}

Jonathan P.

Misogyny is so socialized, that we do not even realize when we are being patriarchal. Eric A. hit it right when looking at popular culture. We become worse off than we are when we try to narrow it down to one sub-culture of music or sub-culture of American culture. The problem extends far beyond hip-hop, far beyond MTV/BET/VH1/CMT/, and so far beyond popular culture itself. Seemingly for all time there has been a system in place that allowed for the degradation of women; whether they be classified as b!$che$ and hos or animals and property. By trying to rhetorically understand rap music we are not breaking new ground in understanding our almost inherent views towards the female gender.

It seems though, that the argument in the article is almost forgiving rappers since no one else is being held to account for such misogynistic attitudes in popular culture. This is a huge error towards change and equality. While we are all responsible (me too, I'm very much still misogynistic as much as I try not to be), we can't give breaks to some because others have not been. Obviously, we are free to be self-expressed and write what we choose, but when we write we should understand what accountability comes with it. The nature of the game is critiques; I'm going to get them and you're going to give them. I'm ready for it and I'll learn from it. So should those in the realm of popular culture.

You say: "Getting back to the definition of @!$%#es and hoes, when rappers refer to such women, they are referring to the women who give sexual favours easily, who drop out of school unnecessarily, who are willing to demean themselves for money or even only acceptance, and the women who enthusiastically dance to and sing the lyrics "Superman dat hoe!" without care for the sexism inherent in the action of actually Supermaning a woman."

I get what you mean, but it's all wrong. I encourage you to look at Ariel Levy's "Raunch Culture". Even if these type of women "choose" this demeaning level for themselves, there is false agency and no real choice for them. Eric A. seemed to point to this idea a bit by how MTV/BET further perpetuates such objectification of women. Either way they go, even when they think they have full power over their lives, there still lingers the system that was created against them, the very system upon which we live, and the very system upon which they work. The lifestyle that you speak of (sexual favors easily and demeaning themselves for money) is a lifestyle created by men for men. Even if they choose it, they chose something men created for them.

Finally, you say: "In the end, the words in question in this debate are simply that – words – and as should be treated as such."

We often resort back to the old saying "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me". I have to believe a rich powerful white man created that saying. Those within any minority or oppressed class truly understands the power of words. The power exuded over thousands of years from merely words, is down right amazing. However, if you want to degrade a black man you throw out the n-word. Take out a Jewish person, throw them a k-. Degrade a gay man, call him a f-g--t. Sadly, those are only a few but what do we call women? B!^(#e$. If we could only view words as words than that would be so great and freeing. Unfortunately, we choose not to and therefore, words are NOT simply that--words.

{"commentId":1522579,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"jpryor03"}

1 vote

#13 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:07 AM EST

{"commentId":1522587,"authorDomain":"jpryor03"}

Jonathan P.

Finally, you say: "In the end, the words in question in this debate are simply that – words – and as should be treated as such."

{"commentId":1522587,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"jpryor03"}

1 vote

#14 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:09 AM EST

{"commentId":1541674,"authorDomain":"prompt"}

prompt

It seems though, that the argument in the article is almost forgiving rappers since no one else is being held to account for such misogynistic attitudes in popular culture.

I can see how that could be interpreted, but I tell you it is untrue.

I get what you mean, but it's all wrong. I encourage you to look at Ariel Levy's "Raunch Culture". Even if these type of women "choose" this demeaning level for themselves, there is false agency and no real choice for them.

There is choice in a lot more cases than these women give themselves credit for having. I don't have a problem with women who want to use their bodies to make money, I see it as a legitimate income, just as with a male it would be too.

Even if they choose it, they chose something men created for them.

Is it so wrong? Women really do generally have a sexual power over men, and it is their bodies to exploit.

If we could only view words as words than that would be so great and freeing. Unfortunately, we choose not to and therefore, words are NOT simply that--words.

I think it is up to the people offended by words to get over it. I understand some people won't get over it, and I can respect their feelings about it. I won't speak in a way I feel is inappropriate for the current company I am keeping. However, as I said, I think that people shouldn't allow words to get to them.

{"commentId":1541674,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"prompt"}

#14.1 - Wed Mar 5, 2008 12:15 AM EST

{"commentId":1523266,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

Scott (Scoop) Butki

I'll come back later to leave comments but I did just notice you're on the MSNBC page so
good job with that.

{"commentId":1523266,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"sbutki"}

#15 - Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:26 PM EST

{"commentId":1533116,"authorDomain":"chris375"}

Chris-246875

I liked the back and forth that helped to sketch your opinion. It may be that the market place is working to limit the number of times we have to hear disrespectful and frankly ugly terms blared into the heads of young people working to form their worldview. It does seems that the branding of the hip-hop genre was wrapped around adolescent attacks on woman. Maybe it will evolve and survive or maybe it will drown in a mass of potty mouth.

{"commentId":1533116,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"chris375"}

#16 - Sun Mar 2, 2008 11:02 PM EST

{"commentId":1533143,"authorDomain":"wordsmiths-corner"}

Wordsmith-246880

As a middle aged woman who lays no claim to understanding or being competent to evaluate "all" of any kind of music, I would like to say this:

1) Artists of all kinds aspire to influence their audiences. To blame the audience for being influenced is a kind of "blame the victim" behavior like saying a rape victim deserved it because she walked down a street at night, alone.

2) Words are NEVER, NEVER, EVER "just" words. They are the most powerful weapons in the world- sharper than any knife and more destructive than any gun. Why else would the ability to censor or control words be such a fearsome power?

3) Being ignorant, I went to the urban dictionary website to get translations of some of the terms being discussed. If "superman dat ho" and "strawberry shortcake" don't describe violence against women then I don't know what does. I felt terribly sad for all the young people who will absorb the idea that sex=violence against your partner and that's the way to make yourself feel powerful.

4) Call me old and old fashioned and I will agree, but just because a person can say something doesn't mean they should. And I believe the speaker's lack of restraint is something for which they should be held responsible, not their listeners.

{"commentId":1533143,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"wordsmiths-corner"}

2 votes

#17 - Sun Mar 2, 2008 11:13 PM EST

{"commentId":1533913,"authorDomain":"prompt"}

prompt

1) Artists of all kinds aspire to influence their audiences. To blame the audience for being influenced is a kind of "blame the victim" behavior like saying a rape victim deserved it because she walked down a street at night, alone.

The audience needs to take responsibility for their own actions. The parents need to take responsibility for their children. Now I will agree that some artists negatively influence their audiences, but there are thousands of other fans who enjoy the music risk-free, regardless of the content, and those fans deserve to have their demand supplied.

2) Words are NEVER, NEVER, EVER "just" words. They are the most powerful weapons in the world- sharper than any knife and more destructive than any gun. Why else would the ability to censor or control words be such a fearsome power?

Words are what we make of them. To the rational person, words are just words. To those easily influenced, words can be weapons. I still believe the onus still lies with the listeners. I listen to a lot of the music that some say cause violent behavior, and I'm not a violent person. I swear more than the average person because of the friends I grew up with. I do drugs because I was born in Canada (heh).

3) Being ignorant, I went to the urban dictionary website to get translations of some of the terms being discussed. If "superman dat ho" and "strawberry shortcake" don't describe violence against women then I don't know what does. I felt terribly sad for all the young people who will absorb the idea that sex=violence against your partner and that's the way to make yourself feel powerful.

Most of those wacky sex acts are fictional, used for shock value. Some really are inappropriate, but then again it is a type of humour that not all find acceptable.

?4) Call me old and old fashioned and I will agree, but just because a person can say something dosn't mean they should. And I believe the speaker's lack of restraint is something for which they should be held responsible, not their listeners.

I agree with the first statement, but not the second. There is no way to hold a rapper responsible for actions committed by a listener.

{"commentId":1533913,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"prompt"}

3 votes

#17.1 - Mon Mar 3, 2008 8:37 AM EST

{"commentId":1541602,"authorDomain":"jpryor03"}

Jonathan P.

1. Audiences should take responsibility for their own actions, yes. Just like I am responsible for my choice to not accept your banter. However, you must realize that when you write something like this, you are taking part in a system that was designed to degrade women.

2. You confuse the indirect harm of a word with the automatic assumption that it leads to physical abuse. If words are just words, why did you have to use various icons in place of some words? Perhaps that is a clear indication that b!*$# has some power behind it, even if there is no fist to follow through with it.

4. Do you confuse the right to having your words over what it means to be responsible for them?

Since you have yet to respond to or just ignored my first comment, I hope can you see how you continue to fulfill patriarchal gender roles through such rhetoric. You are correct, hip-hop should not be singled out, the entire lexicon of misogynistic mediums have that responsibility too. And thus far, you have proved yourself to be just the same.

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#17.2 - Tue Mar 4, 2008 11:44 PM EST

{"commentId":1542259,"authorDomain":"deatienza"}

Eric Atienza

If words are just words, why did you have to use various icons in place of some words? Perhaps that is a clear indication that b!*$# has some power behind it, even if there is no fist to follow through with it.

I imagine you still have the automatic profanity filter on. You can turn that off by clicking on "Account" in the black bar at the top of the page.

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2 votes

#17.3 - Wed Mar 5, 2008 7:51 AM EST

{"commentId":1533280,"authorDomain":"gorf2006"}

Rray

Hey all!

I think too much of today's rap and hip hop is simply nasty. Superman dat ho is one of the most idiotic phrases I have heard in music yet my 10 year old daughter would go around singing it till I explained that it meant doing something mean to a girl that would be both embarrasing and painful.

I try to avoid simply saying "don't" and instead explain to her what I believe is wrong with it. She is a smart little girl and has a good heart so she avoids things she agrees aren't right.

I personally won't listen to hip hop and comparing it to old rock isn't quite right. Old rock might have talked about wanting to get with women, but there wasn't a large portion of songs that said essentially that women were worthless items to be used for the pleasure of men.

Our culture is a pretty nasty one and I think permissiveness is one of the major reasons (Political correctedness is the primary reason) because people allow things to go on based on free speech. I miss the days when you could call a spade a spade and not get creamed for being politically incorrect!

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#18 - Mon Mar 3, 2008 12:21 AM EST

{"commentId":1534935,"authorDomain":"wordsmiths-corner"}

Wordsmith-246880

"Wacky sex acts" that describe violence against women are harmful whether fictional or not.

I agree that audiences must take responsibility for their own actions, but so must performers.

I do not agree that words are just words to a rational person. Words have created nations and provoked the deaths of millions.

I think we must agree to disagree. That being said, I thought your article was thought-provoking and worth reading.

{"commentId":1534935,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"wordsmiths-corner"}

1 vote

#19 - Mon Mar 3, 2008 1:23 PM EST

{"commentId":1535036,"authorDomain":"wordsmiths-corner"}

Wordsmith-246880

Just one more thing that I thought of after posting; your statement "I swear more than the average person because of the friends I grew up with" supports my viewpoint. It's speaks about the power of words to influence people negatively, without their conscious volition. Using your argument, I would claim that you swear more than most because you choose to swear more than most. There is some truth in both statements. I can certainly agree that the process of "influence" is complicated and involves actions of both the speaker and the listener.

{"commentId":1535036,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"wordsmiths-corner"}

1 vote

#20 - Mon Mar 3, 2008 1:46 PM EST

{"commentId":1572514,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}

Brenda Mayer

Although I'm coming late in the game, I want to make some substantive comments but need some time to collect my thoughts and review my research. Quite a while back I wrote a paper on gangsta rap for an anthropology course, but my conclusions were rather different. My focus was a bit different as well. I concentrated on the cultural phenomenon of affluent white youths as a major consumer of this sub genre of hip hop.

I'll be back.

{"commentId":1572514,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}

#21 - Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:20 AM EDT

{"commentId":2044874,"authorDomain":"ndrock"}

Steven100

Coffee table Ass?

{"commentId":2044874,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"ndrock"}

#22 - Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:58 AM EDT

{"commentId":3860038,"authorDomain":"ejronin"}

Shawn Gordon

You know... I was thinking about this recently...The kids in Columbine shot people up and the music they listened to was tied to it, therefore, their music had impact on their actions. I find it odd that hip-hop doesn't have the same impact on it's listeners. It's cant be one way for one group and not for the other.

{"commentId":3860038,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"ejronin"}

#23 - Mon Nov 3, 2008 7:59 PM EST

{"commentId":3860099,"authorDomain":"deatienza"}

Eric Atienza

Well in Columbine the direction of the causation arrow was never really established. Did they listen to that music because they were messed up, or were they messed up because they listened to that music?

I tend to believe the former (not that everyone that listens to that music is messed up; far from it.) If their behavior was directly attributable to their music then we'd have seen far more incidents just like it.

I'd also say that, if anything, hip-hop would have a stronger tie to behavior because it's so much more rooted in urban culture than death metal or what not is rooted anywhere other than its own subculture.

{"commentId":3860099,"threadId":"226502","contentId":"1331918","authorDomain":"deatienza"}

#23.1 - Mon Nov 3, 2008 8:02 PM EST

{"canLink":false,"threadId":"226502","isPrivate":false}

PROMPT

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@!$%#es and Hoes - Exploring Misogyny in Hip-Hop

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