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Girl's case had library, cops in privacy standoff

Seeded on Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:51 PM EDT
Read ArticleArticle Source: msnbc.com
us-news, security, msnbci
Seeded by prompt
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Children's librarian Judith Flint was getting ready for the monthly book discussion group for 8- and 9-year-olds on "Love That Dog" when police showed up.

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  • Public Discussion (108)
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Tim Monahan - Sacramento, CA

"Standing on principle" at the risk of a child's safety strikes me as extremely narcissistic. What if the computers had contained material information that could had led to the safe recovery of the victim, but instead she had been lost due to the librarian's "principles"? How would she have justified that to the victim's family?

  • 1 vote
Reply#1 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:05 PM EDT
Joe-386798

Outrageous! I was about to go off and write about how narrow-minded the librarian was/is, but I'll refrain after being relieved by reading the other comments. It's reassuring to know other folks can put things in proper perspective.

    #1.1 - Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:40 PM EDT
    Reply
    Jenn-384931

    I'm sorry, but the part when the officer says, "I am just trying to save a 12 year old girl is the part where I would say, "Take whatever you need." not "show me the paper."

    • 2 votes
    Reply#2 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:06 PM EDT
    Teresa Cunningham

    AMEN

    So the rights of people who use a PUBLIC computer are more important than trying to save the life of a child. This is where that librarian and her boss should be tucking their tails between their legs and running away in shame. What if the delay they caused was long enough for this child to die? How proud would they have been? How would they have felt if it were their child that was missing?

    It's completely disturbing to me that these individuals are actually proud of this!!! Just go ahead and take away every single one of my rights if it means the life of a child. I for one would never regret it.

      #2.1 - Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:36 AM EDT
      Reply
      Pete-297112

      Not that it owuld have helped in this case but that woman is a total bitch. The cops were trying to save someone, let them look. They were interested in one person, not some witch hunt for anybody doing bad things. I'd like to see what she would say if someone in her family was in the same circumstances and that search ran into the same thing. Plus it was a public libray probably funded with public money, so it was really a city office, which they can search at any time.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#3 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:07 PM EDT
      Curata et Industria-330581

      This situation is really off the wall. On one hand the US and State Governements want to get pedophiles. On the other hand the ACLU and other activists groups want to allow pedophiles to operate freely. We have entered the era where evil is good and good is evil.

      I am sorry that the once safe bastion (fortress even) of the halls of the Library are not safe for children, or anyone really. It is the right of anyone to abuse the system as long as they can get the ACLU to defend them and whatever "stance" they claim.

      I suggest that we abolish the NEA and criminalize the ACLU (for falsifying testimony to change public policy and law). They were both socialist organizations started by John Dewey the Ardent Socialsist who penned the Humaist Manifesto- the atheist doctrine- that has caused so much grief in our schools and nation.

        #3.1 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:56 PM EDT
        Reply
        Jenn-384931

        I agree Pete.

          Reply#4 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:10 PM EDT
          Babs-in-AZ

          I have to wonder, if the librarians would have allowed access would the child have been saved??? It's a fine line between protecting the privacy of all library patrons and impeding a police investigation to find a missing (now deceased) child.

          It's just my opinion but as a mother and also someone who absolutely requires privacy I think there should be some sort of middle ground that speeds the process while protecting privacy.

          • 1 vote
          Reply#5 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:10 PM EDT
          Incredulous-1

          As a parent myself Babs, I don't see any middle ground.

            #5.1 - Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:15 PM EDT
            Reply
            pk-384940

            That librarian so brave standing up to cops like that. So brave that she stopped the cops from possibly finding a 12 year old girl. she is a fool and the other librarian that cheered are fools. Do you think they will be cheering if they find that girl dead because she slowed the police down from finding her

            • 1 vote
            Reply#6 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:14 PM EDT
            Tim Monahan - Sacramento, CA

            "Standing on priniciple" when a child's safety is at risk strikes me as extremely narcissitic. What if the computers had contained relevant information that could have led to the safe recovery of the child, but instead she had been lost due to the librarian's "principles". How could she have justified her vain obstruction to the victim's family? Is it really reasonable for library patrons to have an expectation to privacy when using public equipment?

            • 1 vote
            Reply#7 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:19 PM EDT
            Kelly-297170

            I would think it is about as reasonable as expecting privacy using computers at a place of employment.

              #7.1 - Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:13 AM EDT
              Reply
              sue-384949

              Wow, this just blows my mind! It is sickening to think this librarian feels proud of her rights, and the rights of others. Gee...don't wonder why the world is the way it is....let's protect the sick and twisted things we do, and call it 'privacy' or 'our rights'. So this librarian is sacrificing the life of a little child for WHAT?!?!?!? And what is it we have to hide. Here is a fact - if we would spend our time helping others and making sure our children are safe....that is nothing to hide. Miss Librarian ( I care about people, so I won't call you something else), think about this long and hard, and maybe in the privacy of a deserted dark alley...

              • 1 vote
              Reply#8 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:27 PM EDT
              Dan-384974

              So anytime police want to search anything it's OK, because every single scenario every time will always be a ticking time-bomb. Maybe. I'm not an authority on police procedure, but I would think the state police would KNOW whether or not they needed a search warrant-that is their JOB.
              Blaming the librarian for that little girls death is wrong. The sick, evil man who murdered her is the killer. If the police felt THAT strongly about the "tip", then they should have TAKEN the evidence, librarians be damned. If your so absolutely CERTAIN that a girls life is at stake (your tip is THAT SOLID) why would you let a bunch of mousy little librarians stand in your way?

              • 1 vote
              Reply#9 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:51 PM EDT
              daria-357709

              Agreed. Don't blame the librarian for knowing the law, and law enforcement not giving a damn. I'm sure they knew they needed a warrant and didn't care, otherwise why not just take the computers? Think about this: what if a library computer HAD contained the only evidence needed to convict this guy of murder (and though obviously I don't know this for a fact, but I'm guessing the poor girl was probably dead very shortly after her disappearance), and the evidence got THROWN OUT because it was improperly obtained? This guy could have walked.

                #9.1 - Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:02 AM EDT
                Incredulous-1

                "So anytime police want to search anything it's OK, because every single scenario every time will always be a ticking time-bomb."

                No Dan, only in this particular scenario. But you are right about one thing, you are not an authority on police procedure.

                And Daria, I don't think anyone is 'blaming the librarian for knowing the law' any more than they feel that the police involved didn't give a damn. You don't really believe they didn't care about saving this girl do you?

                There's no depth to your insight and your comments are really about bashing the police because you obviously have issues (how much time did you do?) with law enforcement.

                We can argue all day long about good cops and bad cops and our Constitution but the bottom line is that a child is dead. The police were doing everything they could to find her, this librarian was doing everything she could to look and feel like a big shot. And she is your hero?

                Even if I believed she was genuine, which I don't, and was only trying to protect the public's right to privacy, I still have to question her priorities. She didn't know at the time whether or not there was information on those computers that could have helped them find the girl, she didn't know anymore than the police did, yet she chose to stand on principal, no matter that a childs life, for all she knew, could be weighing in the balance. What a piece of work this lady is.

                And you two give her big pats on the back, go figure.

                  #9.2 - Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:01 PM EDT
                  Incredulous-2

                  "Don't blame the librarian for knowing the law"

                  From what I understand, a warrant was not required in this situation, so it was simply the librarian's insistence that held up the investigation.

                    #9.3 - Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:47 PM EDT
                    Reply
                    Jacke-384986

                    This story made me so angry that I had to look the library where this ... woman works. (I will be respectful by not using the appropriate descriptors.) I have found their e-mail address and suggest that everyone who is sickened as much as I am by this woman's conduct to contact the library and demand that she be fired. Her behavior is beyond reprehensible.

                    randolph@vals.state.vt.us

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#10 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:01 PM EDT
                    Mary Lynn Dixon

                    My outrage has subsided now that I see others have said it for me. All things need to be tried to save a child when time is key. Although the liberal press portrays her as a hero I do not see her that way. Don't they call it "Public" library. Where is the expectation of privacy? Aren't we all responsible for the safety of a child? And if it takes a village shouldn't the village first protect the young? Those poor officers. I wonder if any of them slept that night.

                      Reply#11 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:06 PM EDT
                      sthysby

                      I agree. There is no reason to expect any privacy in a library. What if the cops had merely asked to use the computers and looked at the history embedded in those computers, would that have been an invasion of privacy? Probably, but then every library patron could be seen as invading another person's privacy by using the same computer. Maybe we should get all Public Library patrons their own computer and us tax money for it. I'm sure that the public would love that.

                        #11.1 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:56 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        MissouriNurse

                        That's really nice that Ms. Flint followed procedure to the letter of the law (and other librarians applauded her for it) and delayed the police search for potential information leading to the whereabouts of an abducted child. Hurrah for her! I guess that shows the little librarian has a big set of juevos when it comes to staring down the big bad police. But if I lived in her city, I wouldn't be sending my 8 year old to her library for story time any time soon...I wouldn't entrust my child into the care of librarians who have so much legalistic but so little critical thinking skills going on....I know of very FEW rules that don't have to be compromised, as needed, when there is a life and death situation going on. I would, however, if I was surfing less than reputable web sites, feel like Ms. Flint was the Librarian of the Year. That little girl's family must have been in sheer agony for the entire 8 hours the library delayed the police in their recovery efforts. But congratulations to her and her library for a job well done! I hope they took up a collection and sent flowers to the child's funeral as a gesture of (delayed) empathy....

                        • 1 vote
                        Reply#12 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:35 PM EDT
                        Peter17

                        This is why terrorists think they can defeat us. We have idiots like this woman who has about as much common sense as a snail. Maybe less.

                        I don't know if she has a family, but I wish it were her kid.

                        • 1 vote
                        Reply#13 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:37 PM EDT
                        linda meyer

                        If a 12 year old is missing it would seem to be a wise decision to help find the child, not hold up the process I think the police should have been given acess by not doing so could mean the difference of a safe return or not.

                          Reply#14 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:16 PM EDT
                          Hoopmimi

                          THIS LADY IS AN IDIOT! What if that were your child, your cousin, your daughters best friend,or better yet YOU?? How mad were the parents when they found out some chick with short person syndrome felt the need to be important and block a police investagation? This lady is a straight loon!!

                            Reply#15 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:23 PM EDT
                            TIred of silly

                            Freedom is not without risk, we cannot just waive the law to "save the children" You give police an inch, and they take a mile. She obeyed the law, and people are mad at her for that? Something is wrong. People toss the world kid in, and they fall over to give up their rights.

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#16 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:27 PM EDT
                            Kelly-297170

                            I have several police officers in my family who would not "take a mile" if given an inch.

                            Furthermore, we aren't mad at her for "obeying the law". We are appalled by her superior attitude for "standing up to police officers" who were attempting to perform an investigation. So she stood up to a police officer. Big deal! Would she stand up to a pedophile surfing illegal websites on computers at the public library? Now that would be a newsflash! And that, I would applaud her for!

                            • 1 vote
                            #16.1 - Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:22 AM EDT
                            Reply
                            TIred of silly

                            The library did not delay the search, the police did. They knew they needed a warrent, why did they not get it first? Why did it take the police 8 hours to get one? That sounds like the problem here.

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#17 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:32 PM EDT
                            Reply
                            Middle Class Mother

                            Unbelievable how the librarian would delay an investigation into the disappearance of a young girl! This article seems to condone taking the law too far and being ignorant about the law's intent. I'm ashamed to be an American if this is how judicial system is skewing law. Absurd. That librarian is heartless; and to "Tired of Silly" geting a warrant takes a judge's signature and sometimes it takes hours to obtain that --- hours a young girl may not have. First of all a library is a publc system. There should be no privacy on taxpayer public computers. I hope they find the girl alive; and they don't the librarian should be held accountable.

                              Reply#18 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:46 PM EDT
                              sthysby

                              What really gets me is the fact that these are public computers that are owned by the state, or at least the city. Patrons should have no privacy rights on public computers. Why dose the state have to get a warrant to look at its own computers?

                                Reply#19 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:50 PM EDT
                                TIred of silly

                                They can do that, take away all right to privacy on the library computers, and the books you read, and check out. But, nobody would go anymore. If I want to read a scifi book, its my business. Not the city or states.

                                  #19.1 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:53 PM EDT
                                  Pete-297112

                                  Tired of Silly isn't a parent I can tell you that much, post back when you have some real responsibilty in your life.

                                    #19.2 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:59 PM EDT
                                    sthysby

                                    They have all that information stored in their system anyway, especially with all of the libraries being online now-a-days. And because Public Libraries are often run by the local government, if someone wanted to access the information they probably could--especially if they were a good enough hacker. and do you really think the governments (or anyone really) cares if you check out a scifi book.

                                      #19.3 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:00 PM EDT
                                      Reply
                                      Pete-297112

                                      No one is blaming the libraian for the child's death, she was most likely dead already. But in a case like this it is priority number one to get the child as fast as possible, I think the stat is they are usualy killed within hours of the disappearence. Would you want to wait for a piece of paper while your child is being murdered? "Oh, I'm sorry Mr Smith but your daughter has been dead for an hour but we had to wait for the search warrant, the judge made us change the wordking because we did it wrong, so that delayed us, we'll do better next time."

                                      The librarian could have helped them get some very basic info off the machine that they needed instead of being a stupid idiot.

                                        Reply#20 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:57 PM EDT
                                        Eric-289829

                                        Public librarys are not safe for your children to be at unsupervised. Thats the message that is important.
                                        For all you know a librarian could be a predator.Lessening the time to get a judge to give a warrat is still not going to prevent a predator from performing his/ her plansed communications. Only the parent can supervise responsibly. Gone are the days when children were a communitys pride, now its all about escaping responsibility and unrealistic civil liberties.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        Reply#21 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:57 PM EDT
                                        daveNgina

                                        I hardly think there should be an expectation of privacy in a publicly funded library. I work for the City, and anything I do on my computer, any web site I visit or any e-mail I send, is automatically covered by the MO Sunshine Law as public information. Our library is operated by the City, using public funds. I don't see that it would be any different for a regular citizen to use City equipment at the library than for me to use it at my office. Personally, if I were to use a public library computer, I would not expect anything I do to be protected, but would instead expect that whatever I do could become public knowledge. If you are doing something in a place of public gathering, then you shouldn't be expecting any privacy.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        Reply#22 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:05 PM EDT
                                        steve-338649

                                        at least one of the troopers/policemen knew what was right and yet kept quiet. it's the same that we call ourselves a christian nation and decimated the american indians, blacks, mexican americans, asian, and other minorities. kudos to the librarian and shame to you know who.

                                          Reply#23 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:20 PM EDT
                                          bill1954

                                          This could go either way. But I think in the interest of a child's safety, the woman should have given the cops whatever they asked for. Had they found something to incriminate someone else on a different charge, it certainly would have been inadmissable in court as being illegally obtained.

                                          This woman is no hero for stalling police in their search for the girl. She should be locked up for obstruction and be thankful it wasn't my child. Maybe the 8 hour delay didn't make a difference, but she had no way to know it at the time.

                                            Reply#24 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:38 PM EDT
                                            Peter17

                                            I think this lady should get to view the autopsy up close and personal. Perhaps her idealistic views might change a bit.

                                              Reply#25 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:45 PM EDT
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